Topic: Phoenix,
a collection of poetry by Anupama Godakanda
Mediator:
Prof. Sunanda Mahēndra (SM)
Panelists:
·
Dr
Pulsarā Liyanagē (PL)
·
Mr.
Shantha K Herath (SKH)
·
Ms.
Maduka Wijesinghe (MW)
·
Mr.
Priyankara Niwunhella (PN)
·
Mr
Bhoopathi Nalin Wickramage (BNW)
Date:
21st August, 2015
Venue:
Sri Lanka Press Council, No. 150/15, Castle Street, Colamba 08
Part I
SM:
[…] Today we here to
have a discourse on this book Phoenix. The poetess is Anupama [Godakanda]. The
publisher is Kanchana [Priyakantha] … For a publisher to publish a collection
of poetry in Sri Lanka is a perishable problem. Either you publish or you
perish … She is bold enough to write poetry; she is bold enough to publish […]
Why did you write this poetry [collection]? Tell us something about your
writing? What made you write?
PL:
Exactly!
SM:
Tell us something about
your writing. […] Ei me kavi liyanne?
AG:
I write both prose and
poetry. è dekama mata prashnayak na.
mage palaveni publication [is] a collection of short stories. ethakota mama …
mage personal deval me collection eke thiyenne. mama issella kiwwa wagema. …
They are my personal thoughts. I wonder whether you have watched this movie
called Harry Potter?
SM:
Yes. It’s in Sri Lanka,
now.
AG:
This particular scene
[in it] had given me some idea of why I write poetry. There is this magician …
the chief magician there … He’s called Dumbledore. He has this thing called
pensive. He uses his magic stick … His magic stick and takes thoughts out of
his head and puts them in this pensive. That is how he gets rid of happy
thoughts and sad thoughts. When I saw that I … I thought, ‘OK, isn’t this what
I’m doing with poetry?’ Because short stories and stuff … They are not about
me. Maybe there is a little bit of me there but, you know, they are just
imagined things. For me poetry is a way of dealing with my happiness or sadness
… probably because I’m not a very social person. For me the highest of my … my
…
SM:
So this is rubbish! …
You are here, no?
AG:
Yes, but I’m very
uncomfortable being here.
SM:
Why did you make us ..
put us in trouble, then?
AG:
I was thinking the same
thing.
SM:
Look what she is
saying. This is poetry itself. This is poetry itself. You’ve put all of us in
trouble and now saying I’m not a social being …
AG:
I’m not .. I don’t hate people. I think
people, in their various ways, they are the most beautiful things you can come
across [in life]. But they are very complex. With this complexity I’m afraid of
hurting people. That is one of the reason I think I am … it is very difficult
for me to .. to bond with people because I know that I get hurt easily [by]
some things. People ask me, “OK, why did you get hurt by that?” But I’m
sensitive to that fact. For me, words, seeing them there in black and white
helps me to deal with my feelings … That’s it.
Danush Pradeep Kumara:
When did you start
writing?
AG:
mam hithanne .. hithai
mama hari panditha kathawak kiyanawa kiyala. mang hithanne mama danna dawas
wala indalam liyana eka karanawa. mama liyanna purudu wechcha dawas wala
indalama mama liyanawa. mama punch dawas wala liyapu kathawal ehema thawamath
thiyanawa. Samahara ewa harima hasya janakai. è unata … I think I’ve been
writing for a long time.
Danuka Pradeep Kumara:
Just imagine and write?
AG:
Yes! I was brought up
by my grandparents. I have two younger sisters and I have my cousins but I’m a
lot older than them … è hinda mama hariyata thaniyama hadichcha lamayek wage. è
handa wenna athi [mama liyanne]. And being with grandparents can be a daunting
task …
SM:
Eva .. Eva used to say
this kind of things. I remember my good friend Eva Ranaweer … She used to say
things like that … What about inviting Dr Pulsara to speak…
PL:
I’ll do so gladly
because when I read Anupama’s book … I came across it only when she gave it to
me. Maybe a week ago ... And I was very happy. Not because of the classical
allusions in it at all but because I thought, “Ah! at last someone who writes
poetry and calls it poetry.!” Because in English I see a lot of … vertical prose that goes for poetry. It is
really words which a lot of people … because it is written vertically call it
poetry. I’m very uncomfortable with it. Because … Now you’ll ask me, “What on
earth do you mean?” I mean as I told Anupama the other day … Rabindranath Tagor,
his Geethanjali is very popular in Sri Lanka […] Those are all written in the
original also as prose. In English also they are prose. But the Irish poet
Yeats … When he read this, he said, “This is poetry!” So we have the genre of
prose poetry. Written in prose, horizontal or liner but the thoughts or the
idea expressed, that is poetic! It’s an experience that you have. And I must
tell … share with you that I had something close to that when I read her
poetry. So I call this poetry without being polite. Just calling it what it is
when I call it poetry … In many other cases I’m being polite when I say, “I
read your book of poems” or when they say, “Did you read my latest book of
poems?” I don’t say, “Which one? I didn’t know you wrote poetry.” [ …] So that’s
… that was my first reaction.
And Anupama contacted
me and wanted me to come because she said people tell her that there [are] a
lot of classical allusions. And they say it is difficult to understand them. So
I went through it. No, there are very few classical allusions, you know … and
some of them are quite… have translated themselves into English …into the
English language [and] into the English literature. Yes, there are a few. Now
for instance ‘phoenix’ … Everybody knows phoenix. Yes, there are a few. Like …
SM:
Page 51 you find
allusion to …
PL:
Like what you write on
Achilles. “Fathers and Sons,” yes. 51. Then again 49.
SM:
57. She alludes to
phoenix there.
PL:
The again Narcissus …
That is 15. Poem number 15 … Even “Negative Capability”. Yes, I could
understand, Sir, how “Fathers and Sons” could be a little troubling. Yes. This
is … that is from Greek mythology. It is not for nothing that the world’s …
recognized psychologists named an important childhood stage in growing up as
Oedipus Complex … so … I often …though Oedipus in the Greek legend, as I tell
the students who want to do drama, didn’t have a Complex! But psychologists
called a particular human psychological condition after that name. And since
then … once I’ve got to realize that … that I read the … I saw a lot in the
myths … in the Greek myths. And I think Anupama is the first time I have seen
using the Greek myth in this manner. The son-devouring father – yes, there were
two generations of such gods! … Because of … You see, in the Greek mythology in
both generations of the gods, the primal powers, feeling that they may be
overtaken by there … the younger generation … made them suppress the younger
generation. You can take it as political allusion You can take it as personal,
familial … politics, anything. This suppression.
It is always … It is
also interesting, Anupama, that it is always a mother who tells a son, “Please,
do something about it.” And the children get together and a son … It is always
a son who then controls the father. Binds him, cuts him, destabilizes him and
banishes him, and gains the position of the leader. This happened twice. And it
happened with the last of the Greek gods also. Zeus, he did the same to his
father. And the father … When Zeus was …had cornered his father and getting him
to disgorge all his siblings he had swallowed … The father, and the mother
joined in telling him a forecast that the same will happen to him, too. “Do you
think it won’t happen to you? You will also be overtaken by a son of yours, by
a child of yours.” And so he was rattled by that and when his first wife known
as Metis – Greek mythology describes her as a very old … ancient power of
wisdom. When she informed him that, Zeus, that she was pregnant he swallowed
her. And thereafter told everybody [that] Metis or wisdom is within him. And it
is this child with … of whom she was pregnant that came … was born from his
head. Fully armed and it was a female. And his favourite child, Athena. See. I
don’t like to draw too many allusions here; it is for the writers to do so. But
Greek literature itself has used myths and stories to convey a thought which is
beyond words, like the poem itself. So I think that’s what the ancients were
trying to say in their cataloguing of their myths at least … So Professor, that
is the son … father- devouring son … that you find in Anupama’s poetry. You
find it … find them twice. It’s a kind of a generational conflict. Yes. […] I
don’t know why people find it … difficult?
SM:
I will tell you why.
PL:
Yes, tell me.
Prof M:
In the case of Greek
myths, the average English or classical … student of classics … may know. But
for the average English scholar, the difficulty is the allusions. For instance,
Achilles. For instance, Oedipus. Narcissus … It’s difficult to know why these
names appear here. I have been reading English poetry … the contemporary ones.
You don’t find Anupama’s type.
PL:
Yes.
SM:
That I think is the
difficulty. It’s nothing wrong with her. It’s something wrong with us. We are
this … eh … down to earth … But we know about Ambapali and Yashodara! She
refers to Ambapali and Yashodara. The English reader will say, “We don’t know
about Ambapali.
AG:
Twice cursed!
SM:
“Who is Ambapali? And
who is Yashodara? Kisagothami?” (Most wonderful love poem written earth is
“Nibbutha Pada” by Kisa Gothami. People say that.) As you’ve rightly pointed
out Rabindranath Tagor had referred to Maha … Mahabharathaya … Arjun … Who is
the other fellow? … Manushmruthi and all that . It’s very difficult to
translate. I don’t … I don’t think it is easy to translate poetry at all.
That’s my premise. But you, [Dr L] who have been teaching and acquainted with
Greek literature, [are] the ideal person to write a preface to this book.
AG:
She writes critiques as
well. Therefore, she is the ideal person.
SM:
I said to Kanchana, “My
god I can’t understand some of these poems!” Why did I say like that? […] My
son had given me a book called Greek Myths. Not the famous one by Robert
Graves. Something else. Then I found that it’s easier to wade through this
book. With the guidance of that book… So her stock in trade happens to be Greek
myths. She comes automatically to it.
PL:
She comes to Ambapali
and Yashodara also automatically.
SM:
Yes. But in writing
this kind of poetry I thought you need a series of footnotes. Forgive me for
saying this.
MW:
No, Sir, I think … I
think the average reader, if [they don’t] understand they have … They can look
into it … I mean there is a beautiful line by Hannah Arendt, you know, she is a
German philosopher where she was following the Eichmann Trial. She wrote a
three-hundred-page article about that and she had said certain things in the
Greek language. And the editor looked at it … read it and said, “This word …
This is not English. It is Greek. Do you think our authors understand? Readers
understand? ” She said, “No, they have a right to. They should learn.” My
opinion is too that if you don’t understand then you must go beyond the
island’s horizons and perhaps understand what the Greek tradition is. It has a
lot to offer.
SM:
Very well said!
[…]
SM:
There is a line in T S
Eliot’s “Wasteland”. […] I’m trying to support what you [MW] said. “Om, Shanti!
Shanti! Shanti!” T S Eliot says. … And what is the meaning? What is the book
from where you can learn this?
MW:
I go to Yoga class.
Everybody says this. Peace!
[…]
SM:
“But why do you take
such … interest?” the average man will ask. I will take that interest. I would
like to know what it means … Fire! Fire! …
Allusions have their
own meaning. People know about them. This is what I believe in. I don’t know
enough to approach the subject properly. But for the average English reader in
Sri Lanka even the title Phoenix itself … Those who have read D H Lawrence will
know who phoenix is!
MW:
It’s in the dictionary,
too. The dictionary has it. It is there.
[…]
PL:
And if you look around
…The other day I was looking … listening and looking around for the Greek words
that are used in our everyday surroundings. There is an Olympus which is a
housing complex somewhere. It is for … eh … middle-middleclass people, I think,
Olympus. I don’t know why they called Olympus, though.
MW:
You have a lot of Greek
words in the medical field. Oedipus Complex, the Electra Complex, the whole
thing is there, you know.
PL:
Those are … Those are
normal.
SM:
Yes, those are normal.
PL:
Those … whatever the
language whether Sinhala or whatever the language …
MW:
[…] Prometheus, Icarus.
All those are known.
PL:
Spartacus is a
favourite of all radical people whatever language …
BNW:
It was the very first
beginning of Chitra Katha!
PL:
Exactly! Spartacus. The
number of Greek dramas students produce in universities.
BNW:
Oh, yeah!
PL:
And in every drama […]
I went to the festival this time and I saw in every drama - when it is
contemporary Sri Lanka also - you have some references a Greek book, or a
writer, or a playwright. So that is a part, I think, of our culture now.
MW:
And I think it’s all up
to professors and teachers, you-all, to encourage people to understand that
rather than saying, you know, asking the question, “Why have you written this?”
… Because I think we should go beyond the island’s horizons and pick up, you
know, whatever traditions … It is global … We are in a global world now.
PL:
Also, Sir, T S Eliot,
we had to study for our A/Ls. There were a lot of allusions which we had to
look up … So many books. Dictionaries did not suffice … A lots of biblical
allusions, classical allusions … and the history of that period. We had to look
up a lot of that … So I think poetry is an expression …
MW:
Of course! Of course!
PL:
It’s what’s in you!
MW:
It’s what’s in you!
SM:
So as you said if you
don’t know try to get it known by a person who knows about it!
MW:
Yeah, Google! You know,
Google has everything, nowadays, you know! Just type it in. And you haven’t a
choice, you know, when I read the poems. You asked the question, “Why do you
write?” …
SM:
You can’t blame her.
MW:
No! No! My good grief,
I write just like her, you know! Coming from the heart. You have to understand
woman! You understand woman and [then] you won’t ask why she wrote!
SM:
For a moment I said
Anupama’s poetry I’m not …I’m sorry I can’t understand Anupama’s poetry, I
said! But on the second reading … I felt it’s possible to understand something.
So it remains to be said that poetry has to be understood as well. With
difficulty also.
AG:
Sir, it has something
to do with economy. When it comes to short story or a novel, you have a lot of
freedom. Of course according to Chekov there should be economy of words there
as well, but this is rather a very condensed variety, when it comes to poetry.
MW:
Whether the
Subcontinent has a poet tradition or we are going on the Anglo-Saxon model …
but we have the Sangam Literature. We have the Ahamadu Puram Poetry which takes
about the glories of wars as they did after 2009. And then we have what you
write, that is Aham Poems, personal poetry, that’s all about love. Nothing else
but love. Love and the landscape. You know, those are beautiful things to read.
And you have written for the 21st …for us the modern woman, you know. And […]
you have an interest in history, you have studied mythology, you like the play
of words like “pathi” “Paththini”, you know, that kind of thing. So you have
many aspects and you have brought them into your poetry, you know. And if one
knows it, it’s fine and good; if one doesn’t, then one has the freedom to
figure out what it is. So that is it! And as a woman I understand why you
write. You have two choices when you are unhappy: either you write or you go to
a temple and wait! I have chosen the former. I write.
Part
III
BNW:
What
is the fundamental access point of art? hïlsis idea
tlla express
lrkak hkjo.
This the access point of art. There is a conflict between subjective and
objective world. That is what you call ‘thinking’ … In Western Philosophy there
is a concept called ‘being’. Anupama is touching this point - conflict between [the]
outer world and inner world[s] – not deeply. [She] puts a great effort [sic.]
on this. t,sh olsk foa wms m%;sks¾udKh lrkjd' fmkakkak W;aiy lrkjd - talg
b;sydihla ;shkjd'
Art
ri úÈkafka fldfyduo@ wo fjkfldg ideas j, evolution tl study
lr,d ;sfhkak ´k artist
flfkla'
wkqmudf.a poetry
collection tfla there
are many inspirations from other work … many subjects … responses … not only
emotional … intellectual and when taken to a broader end political. Ideas tl
hq.hl fix
fjkjd' Ideas j,
border
tlla ;sfhkjd' There
are particular blocs, borders, which you cannot overcome related to a
period. ta w;ska wkqmudf.a
lú fix
lrkak wudrehs'
Simply .;af;d;a
fufla highly
radical lú ;shkjd ta jf.au ideologically – this book is really political.
Aesthetically whether this book is good or bad, I don’t know. fï
hq.fha ;sfhk ideological
trap tlla' wkqmud tl fj,djlg populist ideas j,g
,xfjk jd" tl`.fjkjd" lrg w;od.kakjd' ta jf.au wkqmud wks;a
me;af;ka .sys,a,d fydogu radical
positions j, ia:dk .; fjkjd' uu ys;kjd fïl álla ixlS¾K ;;ajhl lsh,d' This is my
fundamental critique of this book.
No.
26, “Choices and Chances”, this represents the typical border of Sri Lankan
artists’ ideology which is bordered by so-called Buddhist philosophy. When you
take a poet ta f.d,a,kaf.a deep u idea
tlg hk fldg,
typical Buddhist. ta
lshkafka Buddhidt
idea tflka t,shg ta f.d,a,kag hkak nE' In the modern world
fjk rgj,a j, religion
fuflka art
.,jkak W;aidy lrkjd' fïl ;uhs tlu lúh uu ±lal ta jf.a fï collection tfla'
I
was very happy when I saw new metaphors in your book …That’s really political
for me … When I take your ideas, they are really
revolutionary … especially the poem titled “The Highway”. It is a really new
metaphor. At least in Sri Lanka. ,xldfõ poets ,d
agri-poets ,d'
lDIs uQ,slhs f.dvla wh' Pre
modern … In Sinhala poetry it is still dominant. It is a political trap
Bandaranaike has made in 1956 for artists. All the artists are inside it. Ideas
must challenge this …
fï lú fmdf;a paradox tlla ;sfhkjd' On the one hand,
you are an extreme nationalist. For example, this poem called “Home” … ta
hq.h bjrhs' l,dlrejdf.ka wjidk w¾:h wyk hq.h bjrhs' That age is
over! l,d lD;shla l,d lD;shla fjkafka
after
it became a text … fïfl w¾:h l;Df.ka wykak hkak ´k kE' l;D lshkafk
;j;a tl reader
flfkla ú;rhs'
This
poem [“Home”] is really nationalistic! This is really political. [But] it does
not repeat. biair artist flfkla .;a;yu f.dvla
tfy fufy hkafk kE' thd tl ideological line
tll bkakjd' society
tfla ;snqkd ta balance tl'
you
should have as an artist some kind of a balance. If it [is] not [there there],
then that is a representation of a crisis. Revolutionary artist flfkla
lshkafka ;shk idea tl
fjkia lrkak W;aiy lsÍu' Dominant
idea tl change
lrkakhs fight
lrkafka, change lr
hq;= kï''' ug ;shk .eg¨j ;uhs tl fj,djlg thd tl me;a;g lrg w; od.kakjd' wks;a
fj,djg Thd wks;a me;a;g lrg w; od.kakjd This can’t happen if there is [no]
crisis in her deep ideas. mokï iy.; woyiaj, f,dl= crack
tlla ;sfhkak ´k'
On
the other hand, “Black Box” …
Social
dynamics objectively ne¨jyu ug yef`.k úÈy fï' Subjectively fmrjofk
;shk úÈyg Th;a tlal fjk .egqula' “I” lshk lúhg uu f.dvla u
wdihs'
PN:
Tfí ±kquhs" uf.a ±kquhs fkfjhs .efgkak ´k
Tfí yDoh idlaIshhs uf.a yDoh idCIshhs' tfyu ke;akï fjkafk ±kqu ;shk wh ±kqu
jrm%idohla úÈhg mdúÉÑ lr,d ±kqu ke;s whg myr fok tl' ;j;a flfkla lshmq fohla
lshkak kï fudkjdgo arts?
lúh lshk tl úpdrhg w,a,kak lrkak yokfldg fail fjkak
mq¨jka'
á%,sxg wkqj úpdrh lshkafka hï lsis l,dlD;shlg lrk nqoaÈuh wdorh'
wjdikdjlg ,xldfj úpdrlfhd nqoaêuh wdorh fkfjhs m%ldY lrkafka'
[…]
“Faces” wjHdcl;ajh
m%ldY jk wjia:djla' Reclusive
and introverted. ;u wNHka;rhg tì ne,Su'
idudkH uÜgu blaujd hkak ´k l,dlD;s' kuq;a idudkH
uÜgfï tajd;a wms ú`Èkjd' tfyu ke;akï wms l=ylhs' lúh lshkafka tla;rd jrm%idohla
f,i Ndú;d lsÍu jerÈhs' Deconstruction,
Barthes jf. foaj,a accessible
fjkak ´k' oekqu;a jrm%idohla f,i Ndú;d lsÍu jerÈhs'
tajd
YsIaG nj ms<sn`o m%Yakhla'
BNW:
`.odkfhka wE;afjk ñksyd wdofrkq;a wE;afjkjd'
,xldfõ fï fol .,jk tl ;uhs b;d wudre'
[…]
PL:
lúhla jerÈ úÈyg f;areï
lr.kak mq¨jkao?
SM:
No.
SKH:
ks¾udKhla l,dg miafi wms w,a,f.k ;shd.kak ´k kE
'' tl tlaflkdf.a YÍr fjkia' fï YÍr j,ska Wrd.kak m%udKh fjkia ''' ish¨ foa
Wrd.; hq;=hs lsh,d ks¾udK Ys,amsfhla Wkdg ug mq¨jka lula kE n, mEula lrkak'
SM: lúj,g ;E.s fok tl jerÈ
jevla'
PL:
lúhla lshkafk ;ud f.a wOHd;aufhka ys;,d ;uka
olsk w;a±lSï ;=,ska ;udgu lshfjk woyila' t;fldg wks;a whg ;shkjd fjkak mq¨jka
fjk;a w;a±lSï' ta f.d,a, Thdf.a lú lshj, tfla fjk;a w¾:hla .kakjd fjkak mq¨jka'
kuq;a taf.d,a,kaf. csú;hg;a wduka;%Kh lrkjd' t;fldg tal lúhla iy iy uu ys;kjd
tjeks lúhlg ;E.s fokak ´k lsh,d'
SM: iuyr lú f;afrkafka kE'
MW:
tl tl lÜáh bkakjd tl tl úÈyg yqiau.kafk' If you think you
don’t understand it, you can’t
appreciate it, lsh,d, let it rest and let somebody else [do
it for you.] there is no one-size script. […] [In Western Philosophy we have
the premise] Cogito urgo sum. I think
therefore I am.[i]
… Language has been created for political purposes. I think your poetry is wonderful but I agree with what he says
about political because you go far then tl mdrgu lE,a,la
w,a,.kakjd to
defend the island. ta mentality tl ;shkjd' That is why I
said don’t be this humble. Say what you have to say. She brings it in a streak.
You go very far … but also … That’s … that’s island psychology playing a part.
fïl ;uhs wms ysrfjkafk' Language
has been created for this as a maximum … Because you have studied English you
have been able to go for a certain extent … Go a bit further. Poems are
beautiful. As a woman I can relate to them, but you can go one step further in
that political aspect.
SM: Poems get written. No one can force a poet.
SKH:
uu Ñ;% Ys,amsfhla yskaod uu lshkafka kE uu
we`omq foa wx. iïmQ¾Khs lsh,d' uu fokafk uu w¨f;ka ±lmq uu wjfndao lr.kak
mq¨jka jQ ta ;=,ska uu create
lrmq hïlsis fldgila' ta fldgi Tng §mqjyu Tn ;uhs th iïmQ¾K lr.kafk' talg
ksoyila ;sfhkak ´k wr uu lshmq tl tl Yßr j,g tl tl nqoaê uÜgï j, whg tal iïmQ¾K
lr.kak' tal ksid ljqre;a tal f;areï .kak hk tl uu lshkafka kE fyd`o kE lsh,d '''
uu tl jpkhla mdúÉÑ lrkjd ''' uu lshkjd “WU fïl f;areï .kak W;aiy lrkak tmd' fïl ri úomka”
lsh,d' tfyu fkdfjkjkï t;k l,djla kE' yenehs wo wfma rfÜ fï l,dj lshkafk fudllao
lsh,d f;areï .;a; msßila kE' wr lshkak jf.a wOHdmfkka yß fjk fudkjhska yß tfyu
fohla bIaG isoaO fjkafk;a kE' tfyu fjkjg leu;s;a kE' l=vd lKavdhï idlÉPdjka
j,ska fï ;;ajh fjkia lrkak W;aiy l, yelshs'
BNW:
yefudau isiagï tlla we;=f, bkafk' t;fldg thdj
jgyf.k thd .ek m%;s ks¾udKhla lrkak kï wrjf.a part time
l,dj lrk whg wudrehs ixlS¾K ks¾udK lrkak f,dafl .ek ''' wfma m%Odk .eg¨j ;uhs
wms yefudau part
time lrkafk ''' ixlS¾K fjkialï fjkfldg artist
yeuodu ,sx ueäfhda jf.a .eñ iqj`ohs ù lrf, iqj`ohs l;d lr lr ysáfhd;a uu
ys;kafk, “;=kqrejkaf.u
irKhs!”
SKH:
[…]
wms l=vd lKavdhula ''' l=vdjgu l;djla ''' yenehs fïl f,dl= l;djla' f,dl= jevla'
±ka wfma wr ;shkjd fk¨ï fmdl=k' ±ka wmsg fï l;dj óg jvd myiqlï iys;j ta jf.a lr.kak
;snqkkï ''' wms l,dj ri ú`o,d kEfk'
BNW:
What
is new art? … In every art work, there is form [and] there is content … fï
foflka tllaj;a w¨;a fjkak ´k' Content tal mrk jqk;a lshk úÈy
w¨;a fjkak ´k' ñksfyl=g mq¨jka b;du mrK Wmudjka Wk;a wdhs reinvent
lrkak' That’s
art! … Thdf. Artwork tl
.ek l;d lrkfldg ug no
problem. uu ideology tl
.ek fmkakqj' Bg jvd broad
fjkak ´k'
mdúÉÑ lrk Wmud .ek l;dlrkfldg ug kx highway tll=hs
blackbox
tll=hs olskfldg fï fmd; u;la fjhs' ta lshkafka black box
lshk tfla content tl
.,j,dfka' tafl ;shk dominant
ideology, tl Thd .,j,d ;sfhkafk' ug effective … ta
effective[ness]
tlu we;s' That’s
art. tflka Thd fï f,dafl ms<sn`o m%;sm;a;s m%ldYkhla lrkak hkak ´k kE'
That’s
not art … ´kEu artist
flfkl=g fï foflka tllska shock
tlla vibration
tlla b;=re lrkak mq¨jkakï … That’s art! That’s my aesthetic comment.
MW:
He
sees some political aspects. uu hkakï as a woman into
this. What I like is how you brought out the person who no one talks about in
this country, as a woman. I see the poet in you … “[R]each deep within my
being/And gather/That slow-burning Promethean Gift/Between my sheltering
palms.” You
have been gathering and pasting words … That element is there though I said
earlier that this island being comes through …but you have exposed a lot which
someone would not dare to expose.
uu leu;s Wfka N+m;s lsõj jf.a You don’t have
that traditional temple-dageba-paddy field jf.a traditional
beauty … Traditional is a creation of 19th century colonial period.
We became Aryans at that time. We were not Aryans before that … tfyu
race
tlla kE' It
was created … Manipulated. iqoaod ÿkafka wmsg Aryan thumbprint tl'
wms tal ;ju Wiaif.k hkjd' So how can we change? … I like the fact that you
have broken that traditional image … You have brought emotional things, but you
have that intellectual thing. That is why you have mythology, historical
aspects, play of words, you know … Patthini
Culture […]. There is a balance between the heart and the mind. I liked your
work.
That
element of woman comes out strongly. And the question Sir asked was not very
nice. “If you didn’t like, why did you appear?” I’m a writer myself. You might
prefer to sit in a corner but we have to sell the book …
fmd;la wÉpq .eyqjg miafi yex.s uq;a;x fi,a,ï lrkak nE' wms fmd; úl=kkak ´k' In some way or
the other … So you did that. It’s difficult … But you have to make money for
somebody else. You have to do a bit of publicity. This is a modern age we live
in. Not like Virginia Woolf’s … You have done a great job of this. Therefore,
hat off to you! That political bit is there. But as in the poem, “I am
searching” … “I am gathering”, and you are searching for identity … There is no
one way … There are many roads. wfma ,xldfõ wrx ;sfhkafka that Aryan road
… But you have broken that traditional picture as in “The Highway”.
BNW:
Even
though this is a lesser audience I like what is happening here. Because most of
the time ,xldfõ fï jf.a jev j,g .shyu .EKq flfkla Wkdu, protagonist
.EKq flfkla kï ''' .Ekq flfkla yskaod smooth hkak' fuf;k tfyu
fohla Wfka kE' That’s
really nice. Because she is an artist. wms msßñfhlao .EKsfhla o '''
I
like the way you entered subjectively, .EKq flfkla olsk úÈyg ''' It’s
philosophical. uu olsk úÈyg jvd .EKq flfklaf. experience j,sx
fïl lshjkfldg iïmQ¾kfhka fjkia' But uu f.dvla fõ,djg olskj
,xldfõ fï jf.a ;ekaj, thd .eyekq flfkla yskaod álla fyd`Èka l;d lruq' ys;
ßfokafk ke;sj l;d lruq' wkak ta jf.a l;d' fu;k tal Wfka kE' That’s really
fine … f.dvla fj,djg ta English literature audience
tfla fjkafka kE' They
have … Somehow they have that personality to accept critiques … uu
ys;kafk ,xldfj isxy, audience tlg;a
mqreÿ lrkak ´k'
AG: I think it’s a cultural thing … We prefer
not to hurt other’s feelings …
MW: We have to overcome barriers created by
language.
BNW:
There
are superior personalities […] There are many women … msßñkag
jvd Yla;su;a .EKq bkakjd'
MW:
They
have segregated us. We can’t cooperate because of languages […]
fïl ys;,d lrmq fohla' ¥mf;a NdIdjla §,d fudÜgfhda lr, wr fjf,a bkak f.ïfnda
jf.a lrkak' And
the education system does not do anything to improve it … Exam pass
lrkak ú;rhs' l;d lrkak W.kakfka kE' l;dlrkak nE ldgj;a'
BNW: ,xldfõ udr perfect grammar
n,dfmdfrd;a;= fjkjd fï poet
flfklaf.ka'
PL:
n,dfmdfrd;a;= fjkjdo l;dlrkak yok tlaflkd ''
ks¾jHdc NdIdjla ''' tfyu tlla kE bx.%sisfh' There is no such [thing called] “perfect
English” … tal l;d lrkak yok flkdf. tal udkisl m%YaKhla'
BNW:
tal correct lrkafka kE education
tflka English
b.ekajqj;a ''' Language
tlla tlal f,dl= tradition
tll ;sfhkjdfka' Thdj criticize lrk
fldg fyda uu fïlg enter
fjkfldg, ug
;sfhk f,dl=u m%Yafk ;uhs uu f.dvla familiar isxy, literature iy
isxy, work
tlal ''' uu;a fïflÈ w¨;a jqkd uu;a' Thdf. fmd; lsfhõjg miafia uu;a confused
''' ta lshkafk fuÉpr range
tlla fufyu fldfyduo tkafk lsh,d' isxy, fmd;la fufyu yïnfjkafka kE ''' Thdg tk
iuyr u;jdÈ dynamics iy
iuyr traditional
blockages Thd overcome
lrf.k ;shk úÈy ''' especially
with metaphors.
MW:
When
I spoke to her ug lsõj you grew up with a grandfather who knew
a lot about history. tal ;shkjd' That is what she got from the education
system … And of course she has studied History as well. That is very evident
here. It is not the Bana Potha that
you’d grown up with. You can see that. And that’s a beautiful thing about it,
you know.
[…]
Danush
Pradeep Kumara: What are the suggestions to improve the
English language?
PL: Talk.
MW:
A
child learns through listening … imitating. I speak a lot of languages. … You
make mistakes … Grammar is not an important thing … Don’t depend on the
education system. It does not equip us to face the modern world. The English
language is not a difficult language. It is one of the easiest languages to
learn. You have to make that effort on your own. Don’t depend on the education
system because the the education system wants to give that lgmdvx
system.
Open your books and take notes. […] Everything is on computers. You can press a
button and the spellings come. So they are wasting energy on old parochial
things.
BNW:
At
the same time it’s interesting how technology and knowledge politics go on. It
is not the way … moving as we are expecting. yeufj,dfju ys;kjd fïl fï
úÈyg hkafk lsh,d' kuq;a fjkakE' 60s yß 70s j,
jeäysáhka tlal l;d lr,d n,kak ''' Common sense
tflx ''' úYd, ±kSula ;sfhkjd foaYmd,kh .ek idys;H .ek udOH .ek' ±ka bkak lÜáh basics j;a
okafk kE' t;k f,dl= politic
tlla ;shkjd' ug ysf;kafka úfYaIfhka wms jf.a rgj,a j,g tkfldg wms ys;kjd technology
tlal ±kqu m%cd;dka;%slrKh fjkjd lsh,d ''' uu ys;kafka wms igka l, hq;af;a
f;dr;=re ±k.ekSfï whs;sh fjkqfjka fkfjhs ;sfhk f;dr;=re ál ±k .ekSfï whs;sh
fjkqfjka' uf.a suggetion tl
talhs'
PL:
f;dr;=re ±k .ekSfuka wms fudkjo lrkafka ''' wkak
t;kg wms ;du weú,a,d kE' t;kg wms ;du weú,a,d kE'
SKH: wvqu .dfk okak f;dr;=re fnod.kak'
PL:
iy tflka fjk krl foa .ek ±kqj;a fjkak' ta
ms<sn`o fudkdyß lrkak' t;kg wms hkafka kE' uu wkak tal wfma iudfc ''' fïl w¨;a
woa±lSula ug uu b.ekakqjg óg;a jvd nd, lÜáh;a tlal t;k ''' wo ;reK lÜáh woyia m%ldY lrkafka kE' wms ;reK
ldf, úYaj úoHdf,a bkakfldg wms ;¾l lrkjd .=rejre;a tlal' kuq;a wo bkak ore
mrmqr ;¾l lrkafka kE' ux okakE wehs lsh,d' b;ska wms ;reK ldf, ''' ´f.d,a,x
bmÈ,d;a ke;=j we;s ''' ta 70 fõ 80 .kka j, ''' wms ;reK ldf, wfma rfÜ f.dvla
fjkia ùï ;snqKd' wms ta fjkiaùï ish,a, tlal wms yq`.la related. iy
´f.d,af,d ''' uE; b;sydih ´f.d,af,d okafkj;a ke;=j we;s' kuq;a wms ta b;sydih;a
tlal iDcqju .egqkd' wo ;reKfhda ;udf.a rfÜ fï ±x mj;sk foa tlalj;a .efgkafk kE'
Th .eàu ''' Th iïnkaOh ''' uu lshkafk ''' .eàu lshkafk .y.kak tl fkfjhs' tfla
nqoaêuh ixjdohla kE ''' tfla nqoaêuh ixjdohla kE'
wmsg .,a .ykak yq`.la ñksiaiq ysáhd' uu kï
jYfhka m%ldY lrkafka kE fu;k' m%isoaO ;ekaj, ''' k.r Yd,dfõ '''
tajf.a ;ekaj, idys;H ;¾l lrkfldg ldf,da f*dkafiald ysgmq stage
tfla ;j;a tlaflfkla ysáhd' ta ukqiaihd Ôj;=ka w;r kE' kuq;a ldf,da ;ju bkakjd'
taf.d,a,kag wlue;s woyila ldf,da m%ldY l,d lsh,d ldf,daj stage
tflx niai,d .y, f.or heõjd' ta jf.a .egqï ldÍ foaj,a j,g wms uqk ÿkakd' uqk §,d
foaYmd,ksl jYfhka iEu ish¨ foa tlalu wms .egqkd ;reKfhda yeáhg'
wo ;reKfhda wrl n,kjd' úfkdao fjkjd' tÉprhs'
f;dr;=re ±k.ekSfï whs;sh ms,sn`oj m%ldY lrkjd l;d lrkjd' kuq;a ta f;dr;=re;a
tlal ''' wo ;shkjd' f.dvdla ;shkjd wo iudfc' kuq;a ta lsis fohla .ek ;reKfhda
yeáhg l;d lrkafka kE' Thd lshkfldg zzwfma lÜáhZZ lsh,d ug ysf;kafka zzfudllao
ta lÜáhZZlsh,' uu okafka lÜá .ek ±x ldf, kdgH lÜá ú;rhs' ta kdgH ''' wkak tafl
uu w¨;a fohla olskjd' lsßn;af.dv fõjd .ïmy fõjd fld<U fõjd fmdä fmdä ;ekaj,
fmdä fmdä ;reK lÜáh kdgH lrkjd' fï .shief¾ kdgH ''' b;du;au fyd`o kdgH zzfuh
;=jlal=jla fkdfõ'ZZ
BNW:
pñ,
PL:
pñ,' wo fjkfldg thd ta jf.a ;j kdgH lr,d ;sfhkjd'
w¨;a woyila Tyq isxy, kdgHhg f.k,a,d ;sfhkjd' ta ;sfhkafk tal óg biair fj,d isxy, fõÈldfõ ;snqfka kE'
kuq;a thd tal f.k,a,d ;sfhkjd' b;du;au
oCIhs' Very
political.
ta tlalu ug yïnjqkd isxy, øúv lj,ï ''' isxy,
<uhs fou< <uhs ''' kdgH lKavdhula' taf.d,a,x ''' yßu ,iaikhs' taf.d,a,kag
fk`Mï fmdl=K wjYH kE' fu;k lrkak mq¨jka' taf.d,a,kaf.a stage sets
yßu simple.
kuq;a tafla woyi b;du;au .eUqrehs' tajf.a w¨;a mrmqf¾ ''' wmsg ''' ´f.d,a,kag;a
jvd ;reKhs'
BNW:
w¨;a mrmqr lshkafka bkak lÜáh fkfuhsfka'
PL:
Thd fkfuhs' Thdg;a jvd ;reKhs' f,dl= ''' f,dl=
Woafhda.hla tl;=jla t;k ;sfhkjd' f,dl= tl;=jla ;sfhkjd'
.sh ief¾ flá kdgH j, ''' ta f.d,af,d bÈßm;a lf,a
flá kdgH ú;rhs' flá kdgH j, fï m,fjks
;ek .;a;d ''' tajf.a Woafhda.hg f.dvla foaj,a w¨;a ;reK lÜáhf.ka we;s fjkjd' ux
jf.a flfkl=g tal yßu f,dl= fohla' bÈßhg wkd.;hg ;sfhk uf.a n,dfmdfrd;a;=jla'
fudllao wr ±x ;sfhk wdKavqj? tal fkfuhs'
BNW:
hymd,kh
PL:
Wkak! […]
fu;k ta ;reKhskaf.ka we;sjk ta o¾Yk ''' wr Thdf.a poetry
jf.a' we;a;gu ta fmdä flá drama tl poetic.
yßu poetic.
[…] tl flá drama
tll ;snqfka wfma l`ÿlr j;=lrfha wr lxldkï wjÈ fjkak .yk rndkla jf.a tl '''' tal
yok ukqiaih''' tl kdo lrk ukqiaih''' thdf.a mq;dhs thdf.a wifehs
pß; ál' fuhd yeu;siafiu fïl kdo lrkjd' foúhkag jÈkjd' mq;d fvksï weof.k t-shirt
weof.k' thdg fïl uy johla' thdg fïl uy lrÉp,hla' wïu;a wrhd <`. bof.k wr
leäÉp tajd yokjd' yenehs f;a tlg iSks kE' b;ska fld,a,g iSks ke;=j f;a fndkak nE
''' Tlafldu fmkakqï lrkafka stage play tfla' mshd' uefrkjd mq;d
hkjd' wïud mq;dg lshkjd zzurfKg bo,d m,hka'ZZ ux lshkjg jvd b;d kgHdkqidrhs' tfyu ;uhs tal wjika
fjkafka' m%Odk pß; j, ysáfha isxy, wh' […] tl;= fj,d hula ks¾udKh
l,dj ;=, ta ks¾udKh isoaO fjñka mj;skjd' wms tal W`Mmam,d .kakd ´fka kE' fuhd
fou<' fuhd isxy,' fïl fou<' fï fudkjd yß l,dj' fïl isxy,' tfyu fkfuhs fïl'
,dxlsl l,djla fï w¨;au mrmqfrka ìysfjkjd' t;k wms w¨;a fohla ±lald'
MW: wms “Y%S” tl
whska lf,d;a@
BNW: whska
lf,d;a@
MW: álla f,ais fjhs fïl whska
lf,d;a
PL: uu ys;kafka tajd Tlafldu msgia;r ornaments.
AG: Can I make an observation? … People have
mistaken zzfoaYfma%uh ZZ iy zzracismZZ
BNW:
Nationalism?
AG:
Yes, nationalism.
BNW: cd;sjdoh iy foaYfm%auh@
AG: cd;sldkqrd.h iy
BNW: cd;sl;ajh iy cd;sljdoh@
AG:
ta fol fjkia' lshkafk uu ys;skau úYajdi lrkjd uu
isxy,' uu ta .ek uf.a lsisu doubt tlla kE' And I have the
right to believe that.
PL:
Of course!
AG:
In
a way – [Boopathy] you are going to bite off my head for this – I think
wmsg criticize
lrkak mq¨jka SWRD
nKavdrkdhl lrmq tl' But
there are a lot of people who benefitted from it. We must remember that at the
time he introduced the Language Act, for political gains maybe, only 4% of the
population had access to English medium education. That means 96% of the
population [Sinhalese, Tamil, Muslims, etc.] did not have access to what you
call the standard English education … Nobody had any mobility with pirivena
education [of that time]. These are things that I have in mind but then me
being a Sinhalese does not preclude me from appreciating Sangam poetry.
MW:
By the way they had good vernacular
education.
AG:
Or
English poetry or Polynesian war songs. biafi,a, uf.a launch
tflaÈ Prof.
Rāghavan g invite
lrmqjyu uf.a university
tfla u lecturers, lsh,
;sfhkjd Prof.
Rāghavan g ''' uf.a university tl
fï'
BNW: Rāghavan means Suren Rāghavan o@
AG:
Yes.
He is a very nice person. And t;fldg Peradeniya University
tfla …
This is a very personal thing that I’m sharing with you.
t;fldg Prof.
Rāghavang lsh, ;sfhkjd uf.a university tfla lecturers ,d
fokafkla uu extreme
Sinhalese racist flfkla lsh,d' I was very hurt and I cried the
entire day. But uu ys;kafka racist lshk jpfk krl kE' You love your
race … ethnicity, or whatever. In the Greek society home – oikos, is it?
PL:
Yes
AG:
Then
clan, then your polis, then the rest of the Greek speaking world. wmsg
ñksiaiq yeáhg alliances
;sfhkak ´fka' fudlo wmsg È. kshfmd;= kE' yhsfhka ÿjkak nE' È. o;a kE' ta yskaod
our
ability to survive depends on collectivity.
MW
t;fldg race theory
;sífn kE, during the Greek
time. It’s a linguistic group. This belongs to a linguistic group.
PL: No. No. No. There were terrible race
relations.
MW: But the city states were fighting.
AG:
The
word ‘barbarian’ had come from Greek. Anybody who did not speak Greek was a
barbarian.
MW: But that was not the race theory.
AG: Of course it is.
PL: Why not?
BNW:
[…]
f,dl= äfnÜ tlla wms talg fkdhd buq' ta tlalu fohla ug mark
lrkak ´k' Thd mßiaika ke;s ;ekla ;sfhkjd' ±ka racism j,
evolution
tlla ;sfhkjd' yßo racism yeuodu tl ;ek ;snqk fohla
fkdfjhs' kslx cd;sh lsh,d fmdä lÜáh;a tlal fkfjhs nation-state
lshk tl yeÿkg miafia ;sfhk racism lshkafka' ta fol
folla" wd'
AG: I know …
PN: Nationalism lshk
Tagore
f. fmdf;a ;shkjd' Deep study tlla fka'
BNW:
ta fol folla' t;fldg wrl;a tlal compare
lrkak nE' Politically,
its wrong because that total era was over. That logic is no more.
MW: This is after the French revolution.
BNW:
Yeah! t;fldg
wr Thd .;a; WodyrKh jerÈhs' Greek WodyrKh fïlg compare lrk
tl politically
wrong.
AG: But the Greek example’s the best example
because Greek poleis were independent.
BNW: No, Greek poleis were means it’s rather a
different component than the nation-state.
MW: Polis is a city.
BNW:
Compare
lrkak j;a nE' Compare
lrk tl yohs mD;=úhhs compare lrk
tl jf.a jevla' Totally
different. Totally different!
PL:
They
were not nation-states. But the point is that they were states. They were
independent states.
BNW: Yeah!
PL:
However
small etc. they were, they were independent states … Modern thinkers prefer …
even for ‘democracy’ they don’t go there … even for the rule of law, they don’t
go there even though that’s where it came from.
BNW: That’s the origin. But it has transformed
into many versions.
PL:
No,
it has not transformed really into many versions. It is the same thing … But
people see the modern evolution form the Medieval Times.
MW:
But
the race theory evolved from the end of the French Revolution when feudalism
came to an end. And from that point onwards they started creating race because
all of a sudden people who used to live under lords, they had to find some kind
of identity group.
PL: So it was after feudalism?
MW: After feudalism.
PL:
But
where humans are concerned they had ideas of my race and the other race. That’s
what she’s talking about … as a human being.
AG: Hellene!
BNW:
tal jrÈk ;ek ;uhs' Thd l;d lrk fldg jrÈk ;ek
;uhs ''' Thd tal .;af; nKavdrKdhlf. tlla tlalfka' f.dvd'''la comlpicated fj,d
;sfhkafka' Thd start
lf,a ''' t;kskafka Th l;dj mgx .;af;a t;kska' uu okafka ke Thf.a ysf;a fudkjd
;snqko lsh,d' l;dj mgx .;af; t;ksx' So that’s why I told
fïl fu;ksx kj;a;uq' fïl f,dl= debate tlla fu;kska tyd .sfhd;a' Politically
wrong Thd facts
arrange lrk úÈy' Politicall
wrong. You can take metaphors like that. So I can’t challenge you. There is a
big difference between art criticism and political criticism. Now you have
stepped into political criticism. ta lshkafka doctrines
fjkia' Academically,
now you [have] overcome the border. Frist you comment on your book and Suren
Rāghavan issue. And then you come to interpret what is racism. So now you are
PL: She said for her
BNW: Yeah! tfyu tlla' kE kE kE kE!
bkak lshkak'
AG: We are subjective beings.
BNW:
Subjective
being ;shkjfk' yß' Objective
being;a ;shkjfk' Racism
lshkafka objective
being tlla'[ii]
AG: There is nothing objective.
BNW:
tfykx ux ys;kafka ux lg mshdf.k bkakkx' You can go on.
You are getting much closer [to] Nalin de Siva. So you better not go ahead.
AG: But when you say you are objective, you
become ‘God’.
MW:
kE racism itself has an objective meaning from the dictionary.
To call yourself a racist might not …
BNW:
ux ir,j lshkak ;sfhkafka fuÉprhs' Even though you
are a racist or not Thd óg udi .Kklg l,sx fldfyo wïn,xf.dv fkao"
w¨;a.u" w¨;a.u ysáhkx Thd racist
jqk;a ke;s Wk;a Thd fou, ñksfyla kx Thd fmd¨ mdr jÈkjd' 83 Thd racist
flfkla Wk;a ke;s Wk;a Thd fou, ñksfyla kx Thdg .sks ;shkjd' Subjectivity has
nothing to do with it!
MW: Nothing to do with it!
BNW: That’s totally objective.
MW: That’s objective.
BNW:
Thdg l;d lrkakj;a yïnqfjkafk kE' ;¾l lrkak
fjkafka kE' You
[would] have gone. That’s objective. Totally objective. There is a concrete
objectivity. Always there is a concrete objectivity rather than our mind.
AG:
Had
you been at Dollar Farm, whether you were subjective or objective you’d have
been hacked to death.
PL: Yes, that’s true. Just like the other
view. Both are very similar.
MW: That does not mean racism is divided into
one category.
BNW:
It’s
good that we came beyond poetry. ta lshkafka Thd ±x lshk
ldrfkkq;a Tmamq fjkjd uu f.kdmq criticism tl' ta lshkafka Thd
ideologically
constant kE lsh,d' tl we;a;gu example tlla'
AG: I’ve brought out that example because your
examples were a bit biased.
MW: I don’t think ..
AG:
Because
it’s always good to give multiple contexts because the moment you say that – I
might not call you that – but people might question, “Where did the two
examples come from?” Be careful.
BNW: What about the audience?
Ajith
Nishantha: I think we are diverting from
poetry now into racism.
AG:
It is about a topic in the poem
[collection].
MW:
But
the thing is your … unfortunately or maybe fortunately, your poem on racism …
it had something to do with … the emotional. You use the word in a different
way. Different context and we came into this topic … It is not he who started
it. You started it to defend yourself. That’s what happened. That’s how we’ve
gone out of the track. And I’m fully of the opinion. I think if you were Muslim
you’d have had no chance. Ify you were Tamil … and Sinhalese …
BNW:
Simply tal ;uhs objective
reality tlla ;shkjd lsõfj'
MW:
And
I of course don’t believe in race at all. And whether I’m stabbed or a Muslim
person’s stabbed, we bleed alike. And of course I’m totally for the elimination
of race … I won’t stand up for a flag.
BW:
I’m
not thinking that you are a racist for a moment. I mean, by your book. I don’t
know you personally. But fmdf;ka ug kx ys;=fk kE tfyu fohla' I’ve just commented
on your statement.
MW:
kE, you brought that
Rāghavan thing. We would not have thought of it actually if you had not
mentioned it.
BNW: Because I’m more flexible in that area rather
than poetry
AG: People treat racism as a negative word.
For me it is not a negative word because
BNW:
tal ;uhs metaphysics lshkafk'
wmsg jpk j,g in
poetry you can give any meaning for a particular word. But when it comes to
[the] real world there are particular terms. ta lshkafka Thdg lshkak mq¨jka fukak fufyu [showing a cup]
zzfï yrld bkafkaZZ' That’s poetry.
When it comes to the real world there is a meaning, right. zug
yrlj fokakZ lsõfjd;a ljqre;a fïl [cup] fokafk kE' That’s the
borderline between metaphysics and physics in philosophy - mdr
fN!;slh yd fN!;sYh w;r fjkafjk br - yßmdr t;fldg' Racism
lshk tlg Thdf.a notion
jevla kE' There
is a fixed meaning. [iii]
AG:
Meanings
change, like you, you know, [iv]
if you take the English word ‘villain’ – earlier in the 14th century
‘villain’ meant a peasant, a farmer. Today the word ‘villain’ means a person
who is … bad. But in the 14th and 15th century word
‘villain’ referred to a peasant.. So you see, associations have changed.
BNW:
The
shift has a political background. wms t;fldg racism
j,g fudlla o lshkafk@ Racism
lsh,d fohla keoao@ cd;sh u; fight lrk ñksiaiq keoao f,dafl
yß fyda jerÈ fyda @ t;fldg fudllao wms lshk jpfk@
AG:
I don’t know.
MW:
It’s racism.
BNW: It’s racism!
That’s why I call it racism! Thd
lshk tlg fjk jpkhla od.kak'
MW:
Don’t use that word.
BNW:
ta lshkafka racism j,ska t,shg hk whg
cd;shg tl`. fjkak tmd lshk tlla kE' Linin kq;a *hsÜ l,d cd;sh
fjkqfjka' cd;sl;ajh fjkqfjka'
AG: It’s people who impose …
BNW:
No,
no, no, no. I think you are ±x we;=,afjk area tl
;sfhkafka idudkHfhka ,xldfj wh lrk je/oaola' uf.a advice tl
lrkak tmd' Thd study
fkdlrmq area
tlla .ek comment
lrkak tmd' t;fldgu fjkafk Thdg fï poetry j,g ;sfnk jákdlula
ke;sfj,d hkjd' ta lshkafk ,xldfj ñksiaiq oCIhs ;uka okake;s foj,a okakjd jf.a
l;d lrkak' uf.a woyi Thd f.dvla foaj,a jroao.kakjd ±ka' Because there
are basic notions.[v] And now you are
not in an artistic area. Thd bkafka political area
tll' t;fldg tafl Thdg ys;k ys;k tajd lshkak nE' tafyu lshkak mq¨jka b;sx' No problem.
AG:
What
do you mean by that? There cannot be perimeters where you can step [over] and
where you cannot step [over].
MW: Listen carefully. What he means is that the
word racism has a set
BNW: Fixed meaning.
AG:
So I’m challenging the meaning.
BNW:
Yeah,
you can do it in poetry. But you can’t do …. You can do!
Bkshd m%cd;ka;%jdoh we;=f, Thdg ´kfohla lshkak mq¨jka' ´k foaj,a lshk rglafk
fïl' iaj¾KjdysKsh Thdg jvd Ndhdkl tajd lshkjd' No problem. uu
advice
lf,a Thd l;dlrk area tl
;sfhkafka, it’s highly
political. It’s not arts any more. t;fldg Thdg jrÈk notions
m%udKh jeã arts
l;d lrkjdg jvd' ±ka Thd nKavdrKdhlf.ka fuydg l;dlrkak tkfldg uu lsõfõ fmdâvla carefully study
lr,d l;d lrkak'
AG:
It
was a comment on something she [MW] said about language. I have that tendancy.
I have things in my mind and I assume that people are on the same wave length
and I make a lot of mess that way.
MW: Let me tell you one thing – Racism itself
has a very negative meaning. So, I think you
AG: It’s imposed, isn’t it?
MW: It’s not imposed.
AG: It’s always been there?
MW:
Racism
is relatively new word since after the French Revolution … People are given
races. We become Sinhala race, the Tamil race …
AG:
Are you sure?[vi]
PL:
It’s how the modern world looks at
the evolution of itself from the feudal world.
AG: So then we are being hubristic thinking
that all those ancient people were primitive.
PL: We draw watermark … We keep borrowing
from them.
AG:
Exactly!
We are being very limiting in that sense. I believe words like ck, the Greek word
Hellas, they are references to races. Races of people.
MW:
That’s
actually … It’s race. The origine was language.
±ka wfmka fy< ni … fy< lÜáh ;shkjd' We come to a language group. We have brought
it into a concept of race theory which began with the end of the French
revolution. When people tried to fit themselves into new niches. “Where do we
belong?” Major identity crisis. wmsg ;ju Th identity crisis tl
;shkjd' But
what we are trying to say has nothing to do with the poetry. But when you use
the term racist to describe yourself it has automatic negative … It comes to
negative connections howevermuch you are trying to defend. Because the word has
a set meaning.[vii]
f;areKdo@ I’m
not being critical or something like that.
PL: Let’s read the poem:
I
am a racist
Unashamed
am I to be racist,
To
love my own,
For
you and I,
Spring
we from the same roots;
Share
we the same legacy
Of
tears of grief, betrayal, and joy.
We
are not a line paradigmatically,
Or
even syntagmatically, put together;
Arbitrary
are our origins.
Blended
into this wondrous nation
In
a crucible of sharedness
Serendipitic
hodgepodge of a ragtag dredge
Pushed
and pulled by time and tide,
Yet
have we stood the test of time
While
many a mighty fell
Like
flies.
I
exist in a binary relation of ‘you’ and ‘I’;
Therefore,
I am a racist,
Selfishly
selfless.
MW: Her poem does not have that element.
BNW: Yeah! That’s the thing. ta poem tfla
Thdf.a tal kE'
MW: Poem tfla tal kE'
BNW: Thd l;d lrkak .shyuhs jefâ
jerÿfka'
PL:
kE' She says in the opening words. The title
of the poem is “I am a Racist.” ... This is you! And your definition of
racist!
AG: Yes.
BNW:
But
the thing is, yeah, very clear! Very clear! That’s why I said I’m totally into the
poem. It is one of my favourites.ta lshkafka Thd racism
lshk jpfkg w¨;a meaning
tlla fokjd' You
can do that in poetry. No problem.
PL: Don’t do it in prose.
BNW:
That’s
the thing! The mistake you’ve made …You have gone beyond this thing when you
tried to explain. Thd l;d lrf.k hkfldg Thd fïl f.ksÉpd nKavdrKdhl
,`.g'
Kanchana
Priyakantha:
ux ys;k úÈyg wkqmud lshkak W;aidy lrkafka fou,
whg lshkak mq¨jkakï wms fou, lsh,d wdvïnfrka lshkak' uqia,sï whg lshkak mq¨jka
wms uqia,sï lsh,d wdvïnfrka wehs wmsg isxy, lsh,d lshkak neß?
BNW: kE kE wfka my dear, tÉpr ir, ;ekl
fkfjhs kej;=fka'
KP: thdg lshkak ´k tal'
BNW:
tal ;uhs uu lsõfj thdg lshkak ´k tl fkfjhs
lshfjkafk lsh,d' t;fldg ir, kE' wysxil kE ' uu tal ;uhs fï fmdf;aÈ;a lsõfj uu
lshmq tlg example tl
lsh,d Thd l;d tl lsh,d' Thdf.a intention tl ;sfhkafka,
tal fkfjhs Thdf.a w;sx lshfjkafka' ta fol w;r f,dl= gap
tlla ;shkjd' When
you are expressing it you are totally in [an] ideological trap. ta
lshkafka Thd ±kgu;a ñksiaiq f.dvk.,d lshk language tll bo,fka express
lrkafka,
yß@
AG: Can you escape language?
BNW: Yeah! Definitely! Why not?
AG: You are referring to metalinguistics?
BNW:
Yeah!
Why not? Definitely. Not as a person. Not as a person. But as a … Historically,
I mean, YsIaGdpdrhla úÈyg ´k ;ekl language j,g msg ;sfhkjd' ux
ys;kafka f.dvla mg,jd.kakjd Thd' f.dvdla mg,jd .kakjd'
MW:
Of
course there is an existence beyond language … language of the senses.[viii]
We have, for example, a lot of things I understand on a sensory level which I
cannot explain in words. You know, there is language of feeling, of the senses,
of seeing, of exposing – Words are very abstract. That’s why we tried to stop
you at that point when you said the word racism because …
BNW: wms okakjd Thd tal fkfjhs
lshkafka lsh,d'
MW:
You
know your poem is abstract. yßo? wrl … wr
jpfka mdúÉÑ lrmqjyu It
becomes concrete. It becomes political. It does not fit any more. fï poem uu lsfhõjd' And I thought,
“That’s a lovely way she has used the word racist.”
BNW:
Very creative.
MW: But then you strated with Rāghavan and went
on a different topic.
BNW:
Realistic
world, when you come to it, ta lshkafka jdia;úl f,dalhg wdjyu
f.dvla jrÈkjd' w. uq, ke;=j jrÈkjd' So you better think. No need to, ta
lshkafka wms;a tlal tl. fjkak ´k kE'
SKH: uu ys;kjd fï idlÉPdj
;jÿrg;a hkak mqoa.,sl fõ,djl
BNW:
uu uq,skau lsõfj talhs'
MW: But the poems are beautiful.
PL:
Words j,g
tyd ideas ;shkjd. You can’t put all the ideas into words. This
iswhat playing with words means. Giving ideas that cannot be given in straight
forward language and creating mind pictures. Those sometimes are beyond words.
[i] Renè Descartes (1596-1650)
[ii] Who has decided on the ‘objectivity’ of racism?
[iii] Althussar in his teory of ISA and RSA rejects this
notion of objectivity and fixity. Common sense is no more than hegemonic
imposition of the dominant ideology on the masses.
[iv] Roland Barthes’ theory on second order signification
[v] All notions are hegemonically imposed agreements
supervised by those who hold power in order to maintain their control over the
scares resources. There are no objective notions or universal truths.
[vi] The debate between L. Goonawardene and KNO Dharmapala
on the notion of Sinhalese as a nation
[vii] Meanings are not divine – they are social agreements
for the benefit of therefore supervised by those who hold power.
[viii] Even the sensory knowledge is given being by language.
It is in the act of naming that something obtains referentiality
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